The Job Forum

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You're listening to locally produced programming created in KUNV studios on public radio. KUNV 91.5. Welcome to the job forum.

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My name is Mana Azizoltani and I am a PhD student at the Sahara College of Hospitality here at UNLV. On this show, we discuss the journey through college and into the workforce with recent graduates of different disciplines. Welcome to the Job Force. All right, guys, let's get this party started. So I'm here with my friend Chase Norberg, who is a private jet pilot for Thrive Aviation. He's come to talk about his experience getting through the aviation industry and just kind of what he does. Hello. And I'm also here with my buddy, Radek, who also works for Thrive Aviation in the office and is going through his pilot journey himself.

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Hello, hello.

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All right, Chase, do you want to give a little introduction?

0:00:56
Sure. My name is Chase Norberg. I pretty much grew up here in Las Vegas with MANA, actually. I'm 24 years old and I fly charter for Thrive Aviation.

0:01:09
That's pretty cool, dude. Radek, do you want to give an introduction, too?

0:01:12
Yeah. I also grew up in Vegas too, kind of grew up with Mona as well. Just graduated high school, trying to be a pilot about halfway through my training and found a way to get a job with Thrive Aviation and here I am now.

0:01:28
Your feet wet somehow, right?

0:01:29
Yes, exactly.

0:01:30
So, Chase, do you want to tell me a little bit about your dream to get into aviation? I know you started really young.

0:01:35
Yeah, let's see, where did it all start? Probably the fourth grade. Okay. Yeah, like I know exactly like the time that I knew I wanted to be a pilot. It was so weird, but I remember it very clearly. Because you remember like, I went to Smalley and the Thunderbirds would like fly over all the time. Oh wow. And so like, you know, you'd look up and watch like the Thunderbirds doing like practice rounds. And I was like, yeah, I think I want to do that. That looks pretty cool. Told my parents, like when I got home, I was like, I want to be a pilot. And then they were like, yeah, okay. Like, it's just a fad thing, you know, he's young. But yeah, no, I stuck with it ever since.

0:02:16
Yeah, so you ended up going to high school for aviation, right?

0:02:19
I did. I went to Rancho High School here in Las Vegas. They have like a magnet program for pilots. So what they do is you go through a four year program at Rancho, you know, regular high school courses. But then they also add on an extra class that's specifically designated for aviation. So by your senior year, or by the end of your senior year, you can come out with your private pilot's license, which is the first step in the licensing process.

0:02:45
So wait, you can actually take, you can actually like fly a plane before you're 18?

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17, yeah.

0:02:51
Oh, 17.

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So you can actually start training well before that. You just can't get officially licensed until you're 17.

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Oh, got you. So if you were like a 16 year old kid, you could like go fly a plane?

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Yeah, that's what I did.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Okay, well, do you want to talk about the exam process in a little bit? Oh, man, the exam process, it's a long one.

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It's a never ending exam, pretty much. What I mean by that is that you're constantly getting licenses and you're constantly getting recurrent and so basically the testing never stops. It's just to make sure that you're constantly current in the most, in the thing that you're flying at the moment. Once you get the license, you have the license for life, but whether you are current or not, that is what needs to be re-upped all the time.

0:03:39
Gotcha. And so I know that, like, for example, you need your private pilot's license. And then what were you working on, Radek, the other day?

0:03:47
So yeah, there's, when you're getting into aviation, there's three initial licenses that you need to have. There's a private license, which is your basic, you can fly your plane. The second one, which is pretty hard to get, it's called your instrument flight rules rating. That one basically just means instead of looking outside the cockpit, you're looking at the instruments of the flyoplane. That one's considered probably one of the hardest ones to get just because it's a lot of theory that you have to learn. And then the third one is a commercial license, which basically means you get paid to fly the plane.

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Gotcha. Definitely. And how are you going about getting

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your license? Because there's so many different ways. Yeah. I chose to go the private route. Private route's a little bit cheaper and you can go at your own pace. There's a lot of companies out there that are advertising, oh, you can do all this in six or seven months, but I've heard things about them that they kind of rush things along and you're not really retaining that knowledge, so I don't really want that to happen.

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Yeah, I've had multiple different stories from different pilots go to schools like that and some they're like yeah I got my ratings done really quick and you know I'm really appreciative of it and it's not for some people you know they push me too fast I just didn't think I was ready but they pushed me into it stuff like that so depending on your work ethic you know it really depends on which route you want to go

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and so I know that those exams because you guys tell me all the time that they take a certain amount of hours, right? They need to fly, how does that work?

0:05:15
You want me to take this one?

0:05:16
Oh, you can go ahead.

0:05:17
Yeah, so basically depending on which rating you're getting, there's a different set of stipulations on which rating you wanna get. And it basically goes to order, it goes private, commercial, you're gonna have to get your instrument rating somewhere in there, because the instrument is not a license, it's an add-on to your certificate. So most people do it after their private pilot's license is the thing. So it kind of goes private, instrument, commercial. Then people like to do their multi-engine, so then you can fly planes with more than one engine and that's another rating, an add-on to your license.

0:05:52
To your commercial one.

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Correct.

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Would that be the one you need to fly, for example, like an airline plane, like a commercial airline?

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Mm-hmm. I had it early on because it doesn't even mean for commercial airliners. It just means for any airplane with more than one engine that you got to fly. And then after that, the last and final license that there is, is the airline transport license. Okay, so is that the is that the one that you would do to like fly for United or

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the funds or whatever?

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You have to have an airline transport to get a job at, you know, one of the regional airlines or one of the airlines or even a charter 135 company, sometimes. Like even at my company, I didn't technically need an ATP, but I had all the coursework and the paperwork done so that when I went to train, I got the final license as I got my rating for the planes that I fly now.

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Okay, I got you. And so what exactly is like the flying hour commitment that you need for each one of the certifications?

0:06:48
So they all kind of ramp up a little bit. For the private license, the minimum is only 40 hours, and there's smaller stipulations on there, but 40 hours. The instrument license, when it's all said and done, is about 90 hours, I'd want to say.

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It really depends on your progress.

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Yeah. Oh, it kind of depends how fast you study or how fast you learn, that kind of stuff.

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Yeah. I mean, there are regulations saying you need to have this many instrument hours at this many times, but it can take anywhere between 60 to 70 to 100 to 120 depending on how dedicated you are and how often you fly. It just depends.

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The average, I heard, the average for new private pilots, they said the minimum is 40, but the average is about 80 to 100.

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Wow.

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So, yeah, it can go anywhere. Just depends on how much you study. And the final license that you need, the commercial, that's the one where people are like, it's really expensive to get into because you need 250 hours for that one.

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And so you mentioned it's expensive, and I was gonna ask this next, is how much does it take, like, in terms of your capital input in order to get one of the license,

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or each licensor, but you know, maybe the first license?

0:08:00
So I'll go through a little bit about my experience. Okay, go for it. So when I was doing my private pilot's license in high school, my parents helped me pay for that privately and I went to a flight school in North Las Vegas. After all was said and done, I think out of pocket, we paid somewhere around seven to eight thousand just for the private pilot and then actually Rancho High School, the place I was talking about earlier actually donated $2,500 towards my training subsidizes a little bit they did so if I was committed enough And I was committed enough in my training part of the magnet program one of the deals was is that they would pay $2,500 towards your train which was pretty cool. You know that's yeah That's a big thing for for a you know lowly high school student trying to get your little private license. Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah.

0:08:51
So, okay, well then, it sounds like you can just like, pay the money and do the hours and learn everything you need to know and take the exams and become a pilot. So why exactly did you go to college then?

0:09:03
So, the way that I went, I went what's called the flight university route. So, whereas Radic is doing his privately, he's doing it more cost efficiently on his own dime. What I did is I elected to go to the University of North Dakota, which is one of the higher end flight school universities out there. So not only did I get a bachelor's degree in aeronautical science, along with all the flight training that comes with it. So basically what they did was they streamlined the whole process for me, and then they just kind of cut it into semesters of college. So I did a full four years degree worth of college courses, along with the courses that I took as an aviation professional. And then I did all my licenses up through my certified flight instructors with instrument rating. So I went pretty high up the totem pole. And going to one of these university flight training programs, because they streamlined the process in the way that they did, you're able to get what's called a restricted airline transport license. So we talked about the airline transport being the highest level. So if you go to one of those universities or an accredited program that runs one of those streamlined courses, instead of needing, I think you asked about like how many hours do you need? The final one, you need 1,500 flight hours. But if you go to one of those accredited universities, you only have to do 1,000 before one of the airlines can come pick you up.

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So what exactly is the restriction then?

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The restriction is that you can't act as a pilot in command of the aircraft that you're flying. You're basically, what that means is that you're sitting right seat, you're the first officer, and you can only be the first officer.

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So like the co-pilot.

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Exactly. And then basically what happens in that ATP process is you sit, it just allows you to sit in the right seat faster than you would in an airline transport, because if you're brand new, they're not gonna put you in the captain's seat right away. You're still gonna sit in the right seat. But what that does is it allows you to enter the industry just a little bit quicker.

0:11:14
And you can get those maybe let's say you need the 500 more hours for the ATP without the restriction, then you already have those 500 hours in the cockpit with the pilot, right? Kind of thing. Correct. Gotcha. Okay. So can you tell me a little bit more about like what specific classes that you took at North Dakota? Sorry.

0:11:32
Yeah. Not many people know about North Dakota, so it's okay if you mispronounce some North Dakota, don't you know, don't you know? They call everything pap, you know Every time they say soda they get really pissed off. So but uh, yeah a lot of great friends that I still talk to now that went to the University of North Dakota up there, but So like I was talking about my core aviation classes. Those were actually partnered with the licenses that I was doing. So when you are becoming a pilot, you have ground and you have flight training. And that ground training is just you one-on-one with an instructor teaching you the book knowledge and such.

0:12:16
The knowledge is what exactly?

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FAA regulations, aircraft systems and tech knowledge, how to do procedural things in the airplane, air traffic control, flight routes, things like that.

0:12:31
Okay, and was that like a semester of classes, is that a year of classes, is that the whole program?

0:12:38
So basically that's all incorporated into your flight training cost, but basically when you go to an accredited university, they will actually make it one of your university classes. Oh wow. So I actually sat in a class, you know, three or four times a week doing this ground school and all of my teachers were pilots. You know, they're either retired or current pilots that flew, you know, for the airlines or they flew corporate or whatever. So wealth of knowledge that I had to apply from. Got some really good letters of recommendation from them as well. And you know, if I had any questions, they'd say, oh, you know, I did this when I was doing my training, you should probably look into doing this, so on and so forth.

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Okay, so you had your ground school in class makes sense. So what about the flight school? Where did you do that? Was that

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like, so it was at the airport around the corner from the okay. And so I flew out of Grand Forks International Airport when I was doing my training.

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And so did those classes count like as credit to like, did

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you're do you flying out of the airport and doing the flight training, did that count for

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credit? So you, University of North Dakota, I'll just abbreviate to UND, yes they did make it part of the curriculum and passing the flight course was part of getting your bachelor's degree. Okay so let's say you were to fail one of the licenses or exams and you have to retake it. Okay you couldn't get your degree then? You could and you can retake it as many times as you want. Okay. So you can just, if you don't make it that semester you can always try again the next semester

0:14:04
And so, you know, you have to pay for the licenses and you have to pay for the the school. Yeah, so is that covering your tuition?

0:14:11
Yeah, so the flight training cost my tuition was built separately So what I would do is you pay for your tuition so my tuition was separate and my flight training was on a separate account, so but I was able to because where I got my loans because that's how I paid you know I don't have all this money out of pocket of course the student I was able to actually use student loans for flight training and the bank that I went through knew that the university I was going to did have flight training so I allocated some of my student loan funds to flight training to help me pay for it. Oh that's a nice way of doing it.

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So it's kind of all in the same place, basically.

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And you know, if you can use student loans to help pay, it's way less interest, you know, than doing like a private loan. Yeah. So I was able to get away with a little bit lower interest cost on my flight training.

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Wow. So it seems like going to college, going to one of these aviation schools

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is almost like a little hack. Yeah, you could say it that way. You know, some people don't feel about it that way. I mean I obviously feel strongly because you know I went there. A little biased, yeah. Yeah, and I'm a little biased and I can say that all of my friends are probably a little biased too. Shout out to all the alums out there. The UND alum graduates are everywhere in the aviation industry.

0:15:27
You guys are like a little frat or whatever.

0:15:30
Yeah, pretty much. You can say it that way, yeah. And then of course there's schools like Embry-Riddle as well, also one of the top, they're a private school. However, I also like to agree that I think UND is better. Just saying that right now. So.

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Yeah.

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Well, anyway, people who have memorized it out there will maybe send you an angry email or something.

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Did you, I was gonna say, did you wanna know like the final cost or like what did everything really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'll be willing to share. I think the final cost, I had a couple scholarships in my time. So I would say out of pocket, including all the loans that I took out, probably spent around 70 to 75,000 total, including tuition plus flight training, which is actually not bad because there are people out there with hundreds of thousands of dollars. And-

0:16:24
Okay, so, Raleigh, I'm going to ask you now, how much are those schools that are like outside

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of, you know, those like flight schools that you were talking about earlier, how much do

0:16:33
those cost? Um, everything goes by the hour, literally. So the airplane, it's pretty industry standard now that you get the airplane and the fuel together. You don't have to pay for the fuel. So the airplane's one cost. I usually spend about $165, $170 per hour. And then the flight instructor is a different cost. You don't need a flight instructor for all your flights

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unless you're doing your private lessons.

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So let's say like at the end of everything, like when you have all your stuff done, how much do you think it would cost you

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without going to school? So, so far, getting where I've gotten, I've spent about 20,000 out of pocket. I think just to get the rest of what I need is about, I would say about 25K.

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Okay.

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So, yeah.

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But the nice part about college is that you get a degree with it.

0:17:17
I do. Right. So I don't have to go to a college and get like a separate business degree. Yeah. But, you know, I've had a lot of people in the industry that have done it the way that Radek is doing it, and they're in the same exact place that I'm at.

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Do you need a degree to become a pilot?

0:17:30
You used to, but now not anymore.

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Is that because there's a shortage of pilots right now?

0:17:36
A little bit, yeah. That has a reason to do with it, yes. They also realized, oh, sorry, you go ahead. I was just going to say, there's a couple of airlines that do require it, like FedEx. They still stand by the rule that you definitely need a bachelor's, but those degrees can be in anything. You can have a liberal arts degree and still be a pilot. Yeah, it was more of just like a, I'm a fancy guy type of thing saying, and like I went to college type of thing, but a lot of the airlines are realizing that, yeah, we don't really care about that anymore. If they have the flight hours, they have the flight hours.

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Right. I mean, it's like one of those things with trades, right?

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Like, you know, a lot of times they don't even care. If you have the trade, you have the trade.

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Right. Yeah, exactly. And so, okay, I want to ask you one last thing about college before we move on. Okay.

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I know you were a CFI in college.

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I was.

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So how did that work? So CFI stands for Certified Flight Instructor. There you go. For those of you who don't know what those abbreviations mean. Everything has an acronym in aviation, as sure as Radic has been finding out. But yeah, so part of my curriculum is actually becoming a flight instructor and getting my flight instructor license. Oh, wow. So I flight instructed at the University of North Dakota for about a year and a half. And that's an easy way to get hours, right? Easy way to build hours. That's honestly what I can say, one of the best ways to build hours.

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How many get paid to get hours?

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To get to your airline transportation license. Yeah. There's obviously a slew of jobs that you can take. You can do, you know, parachute, jumper flying.

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Oh wait, it doesn't have to be just being a, flying a plane? It could be anything in the air?

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No, no, no. I'm talking about you're the pilot flying. Oh, oh, oh, I get it. Jumpers.

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I was going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You could do like banner towing. You could do aerial photography with your commercial license. Wow. So there's, you could do like weather modification There's a whole bunch of jobs out there that you can help build time But being a flight instructor is probably one of the easiest ways and you get paid while doing it I'm sure it's relatively more consistent to them. Yeah. Yeah, so I work my butt off at UND Let's just put it that way like I was never in shortage of students to train because there's so there's so many kids up there And so how many hours did you rack up at the end? Of my UND stint? Yeah. Uh, probably close to about eight or nine hundred.

0:19:46
Wow, dude.

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Uh, flight hours before I got offered another job, um, that I was actively looking for because I didn't want to live in North Dakota anymore.

0:19:53
Got you. So, okay, I said, I know I said it last time, but I have one last question before we move on to like your current job. So, um, you, you mentioned something about a non-profit that your friends put together. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

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Yeah, so a bunch of my friends that I knew from UND put together a little non-profit called Project Aviator. And you can find it at projectaviator.org. What they did was they created a place where people who are interested in the aviation industry can get connected with a mentor, and then they can get their path kind of, they can discuss their path with the mentor. The mentor can kind of guide you how to get there. You know, they can give you advice on this is what I would do or this is what I did when I was getting my license and so on and so forth.

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I think that's my guy.

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Mm-hmm.

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I definitely will.

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Right, so on that website they have a bunch of airline guys, bunch of corporate guys like me that if you had, you know, you don't really want to go to the airlines, you could talk to a corporate guy, or you really want to go to the airlines, so you talk to an airline guy, like, what do I got to do to get there? And they just started doing some funding as well, so that they can start giving out scholarships. I think they gave out their first scholarship for a written exam not too long ago. Yeah, no, they're doing great work over there. So good job guys.

0:21:14
Keep it up guys. Okay, so let's talk about your job now. So how did you land your first job? You said you want to get out of North Dakota.

0:21:20
So yeah, so technically my first flying job was at North Dakota. Oh, right, right, right. Because they said, congratulations, you got your flight instructor. You will now start in three weeks. Wow. And I was like, sweet. You know, I finally get to fly for a living. But yeah, I was flight instructing there. And then, of course, I went home for spring break. I finally got a week off, thanks to my boss. God bless his soul. Oh yeah, he was a real one. But COVID happened. All right. And so basically, we got put on like a sabbatical. So we were kind of furloughed. But they said, we're coming back, we just don't know when. So I said, okay, you know, that's fine. Well, I was in Las Vegas, because I'm from there, I came home. I actually went job searching, and just to like find and see what was out there, poke my nose, and of course nobody's hiring because it's COVID, right? As soon as I moved back to North Dakota to start working again, I get a call back from one of the places. And that was all in, right? Yep, all in aviation and Henderson. So they gave you- A serious outfit, yeah. So they gave me, they actually called, I didn't think they would, but they called me back and they said, hey, you're a UND guy, both me and the owner are UND guys. And we like, they said we like the product that they put out and we're looking for an instructor. Are you willing to come back and do an interview?

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You're like, heck yeah.

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And I was like, yeah, you better believe it. So I came back and- The rest is history. Yep. I left my job at UND and went to work for them and what a great job that was flying these really expensive four-seater prop airplanes. I did flight training like I was doing at UND, but I also did a lot of aircraft ferry, like transporting purchased airplanes across the country to their new owners, doing training for new owners, and did a lot of really cool stuff in those airplanes so really cool place. Good experience. How many hours did you rack up with them over there? Probably close to seven or

0:23:20
eight hundred hours. Wow and that wasn't even two years was it? No it

0:23:24
was just a little over a year. I got a lot of flight hours working

0:23:29
there yeah. I remember the first time I went up in a plane like not a commercial like a airline. Oh yeah I took you with me. Chase called me like what was it like ten o'clock at night? He's like, hey dude, I gotta get some, I gotta do like, what was it called?

0:23:41
I was getting night current.

0:23:42
Night current, I gotta just go up and down a bunch of times. And he's like, do you wanna come with me? I was like, I guess, dude, why not? I'm not doing anything else.

0:23:50
No, no, no, I don't think it was night current.

0:23:52
Yeah, it was night current, it was at night.

0:23:55
No, you know what I think I was doing? I think I just got, I just wanted to do some takeoffs and landings just for practice. Because sometimes, what happens, sometimes we got rusty, so we were like, oh yeah, so let's just go out and screw around and have a good time. And let's just do a couple landings just so I can practice every now and again. And I paid for that out of pocket.

0:24:20
Oh, did you really?

0:24:21
I didn't know. Yeah, so I paid for that one out of pocket because I just wanted to practice a little bit more. But usually if you need to get current, the company will pay for that.

0:24:30
So, yeah.

0:24:31
Okay, cool.

0:24:32
That was really fun though. Thanks for the invite.

0:24:34
Yeah, yeah, no, that was a good time, man. That was fun airplanes and stuff.

0:24:38
So, do you wanna talk about sort of your new job and how you got your current job? Because I know, did you work, you went straight from All In to Thrive, right? I did, yeah. Okay, so do you want to talk about that kind of, that hop?

0:24:51
Yeah, yeah. So I actually knew about Thrive already. I was doing my research while I was at All in Aviation. I always wanted to do corporate. When I was in college, I did an internship with a corporate company. So that was a really, really fun experience. Really laid back guys, you know, they were wearing like polos and shorts. I showed up to my first day in a suit and they were like, cool suit man, but you don't have to wear that. And I was like, oh, thanks. But yeah, learning about the corporate industry was great. And that internship that I had in college was awesome. And that really opened my eyes to the different facets of aviation. It's not just about the airlines. So I was already looking at corporate all over the place. And then I knew about Thrive, actually from a pilot that I'd met, who was there working for Thrive, and our paint scheme is kind of crazy on those Thrive planes, so you can always pick them out out of nowhere. So, yeah, I just put my application in when I had 1,500 hours, and got hired pretty quick, because they needed people. You talk about that pilot shortage, it's real.

0:26:00
Wow, so interview process was pretty chill, pretty easy. You just went there had the interview and they hired you pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

0:26:08
I did an HR interview first, and then I go through a second round of interview, which is the more technical side of the interview, asking about questions, qualifications, aircraft systems, aircraft knowledge, instrument knowledge, things like that. And then I think I had one final interview with the chief pilot, which was just more of a formality and I got hired.

0:26:26
Cool, cool, cool.

0:26:28
Is there like some kind of camaraderie among pilots?

0:26:31
Like are you guys, is it like kind of, you really? Yeah, no. Pilots, recognized pilots? Like seriously, I see like people that I've met all across the country like all the time. Really? Like I'll just be like, oh there's my buddy from UND and I flew that guy once and I flew with that guy once and like you'll see him everywhere so the net the aviation network is actually very small. Wow okay so it's I mean I'm

0:26:56
sure like as long as you network around there you know you always have a job.

0:26:59
Big tip network network network network because somebody might come offering a

0:27:04
job. Yeah yeah totally. Put your name out there. I know and I remember one day Chase added me on LinkedIn I was like oh look at Chase dude I looked at his connections because sometimes I like to just see who people are texting, it's like,

0:27:16
pilot, pilot, pilot, pilot, pilot, pilot, pilot, pilot.

0:27:19
Yeah, all the other pilot guys.

0:27:22
Yeah, yeah, but so, do you have any advice for like, other than networking, of course, for people, like students at an aviation school, or maybe someone going through the process like RADIC, or?

0:27:33
Yeah, take your time. Don't rush yourself into something that you're not sure of, right? So a lot of times companies will try and push, like, you know, do these programs that'll fast track you and fast track you, but really you wanna go at your own pace, do with what's most comfortable for you. Don't push yourself into something you don't want. Or like, you know, if you're like such a hardcore guy, I wanna go to the airlines so bad, and then you sign up with the airlines and you're like, man, this sucks. Or like you go corporate and you're like, man, this sucks, I should have gone to the airlines, right? Always give yourself more than one option. Don't lock yourself down into one thing early on That's one of the best things that I can say. Yeah

0:28:11
No, that's some good advice. He's giving I would just say personally just definitely go at your own pace Don't let anyone push you into something. That's unsafe either. There's a lot of Like oh you've been flying for a long time like you should take your test kind of thing. Yeah, no, there's a lot of CFIs too that when you're training, they'll kind of push you a little bit, like, oh, you need to do your solo, like, now, even though you only have like 20 hours or something like that. So just try to avoid things like that. And for the most part, you'll be safe.

0:28:43
Yeah, yeah, totally. And then what about maybe internships? Would you recommend having an internship? I know you said it really changed you.

0:28:49
Absolutely. Anything that can give you a leg up, do it. I did an internship in college. It looks really good on your resume, but it also gives you insight into the industry that you're looking for. So if you want more information on corporate or airline, get an internship, and there's no better way to see how a company operates than actually going to work for them in some capacity and seeing how it actually operates behind the lines.

0:29:13
Wow. Well, Chase, I really appreciate you coming out to chat with me and Radek, thank you for being here. I learned so much today, to be honest, and I hope it helps any students out there looking to get into aviation.

0:29:24
Yep, absolutely.

0:29:25
Thanks so much for listening to The Job Forum. If you want any more details or have any questions, visit my website at manaziz.com. If you want any more details or have any questions, visit my website at manaziz.com. Welcome to The Job Forum.

Transcribed with Cockatoo